In conversation feat Allie + Chloe

why’re we here? why’d we make this?

cuz we are friends. we both have substacks. our work thematically overlaps at the intersection of inner work, spirituality, and relational dynamics - especially those that’re hardest to navigate.

chloe takes on racism. allie takes on dating.

what is this? // what’d we ‘make’ - ?

we video’d a conversation, then edited the transcript into 3 diff subject areas. we did our best to impart honesty + insights. you’ll have to let us know if its beneficial.

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On how we’re approaching dating

Chloe: With my dating life right now, I've been in this eight month cleanse of not dating. A cleanse sounds a bit overdramatic: Ive been rooting in myself in learning how to love myself. In the past, I've had this possessiveness that has emerged within me when it comes to wanting to pin down guys and wanting to control them, of really wanting them to show up in the way that I want them to show up, and then feeling really small and insecure if they don't show up in that way.

Its a somatic feeling that I feel in the pit of my stomach -  it isn't necessarily rejection, but it feels like rejection when they don't show up in the way that I want them to show up. And so right now, I'm single and very much still in this cleansing process. I sometimes fluctuate between thinking, oh yeah, I just wanna date around and like this guy and that guy simultaneously. And then at the same time I'm like, no, I actually really wanna find my partner and get married and have kids. So I hold these two things in the balance. So yeah. That's a little bit on me. What about you?

Allie: I’ve been in the opposite moment of you in that it feels like there's been these waves of dating energy. And I'm riding them. They feel like a powerful teacher. Its not to pass judgment over whether the solo time versus the time with others is more rich and powerful. And I've gone back and forth on that – a lot. It is what it is right now and I'm flowing with it.

When it comes to how I choose, I’ve realized that I trust another person to the extent that they know themselves. My main question is, how self-aware is this person?

In terms of how I know where I want to be putting energy -- I really do believe my body knows. I’m always asking, what is my body saying to me? What's my heart feeling? Interestingly, it's almost never whatever the mind or ego wants that ends up being the truth.

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On dating, the work of Carl Jung + the ‘self’

Chloe: He {Jung} talks about how being in relationship requires separate and distinct individuals coming together to be together in their separateness.

Allie: There’s this quote in ‘memories, dreams and reflections’ where he said, “as far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.”

I’m super curious what extent we get more conscious in relationship with other versus as a solo experience.

Chloe: I mean, one of the things that is coming up for me, as you're saying this is Jung's notion of individuation, and whether we can be in relationship with someone else if you are codependent. You're not really in relationship, if you are codependent.

Allie: Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. And it is like, how much do we see because we are mirrors for each other, versus how much are we able to solo generate what we are ready to see.

Chloe: From a cognitive science perspective - I learned this from John Vervaeke, who's a cognitive scientist at the University of Toronto – that around the age of three, is when we develop a separate sense of self. The development of self is actually very necessary. The way we develop a separate sense of self is by internalizing other people's perception of us. So we actually can't develop a separate sense of self out without other.

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On separating from ‘the script’

Allie: For so long, I had this running narrative, that once I meet my person and have a home and have a family, - I'd finally, actually be happy. As though this other life - my life - is the waiting room, and once I have ‘all that’ – I’ll really starting living.

My therapist raised the idea that all spiritual paths, all spiritual journeys end in this moment of nothingness. The journey is the destination. It's just being here now. That's it. And how hilarious is that.

So yeah – my waiting room – its a really well armored suit against being present.

Chloe: I get that, cause part of the cultural script that I grew up with growing up in a religious home was, was an obsession with the second coming, this idea of waiting for the second coming of Jesus.

So there's this big waiting mentality - you're constantly waiting when you're looking for the signs.

I believe in the divine, I believe in a higher power, but doing the work of figuring out what is my relationship with the divine versus what is the relationship that parents or church or any other authority figure here wants to impose upon me. Yeah. It's like separating the chaff from the wheat. It's like you're doing the work of, you know, figuring out this good seed versus these seeds that aren't so good.

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Want more? tell us what other topics we should take on in the comments section below.

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About us.

Chloe is founder of theory of enchantment, a compassion-first approach to anti-racism work that combines social emotional learning and interpersonal growth as tools for leadership dev. c’s work has appeared in the WSJ, NYT + the bill maher show.

Allie is founder of the equanimity equation, a laboratory for creating connection at depth. allie has hosted 100’s of events, on a weekly basis communicates with tens of thousands of people and holds a masters degree in spiritual psychology from columbia university.

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